JLL Perspectives podcast: Navigating the energy transition

Welcome to the latest episode of JLL Perspectives Podcast. My name is Simon Greenfield. I'm the Regional Lead for Sustainable Solutions across Asia Pacific at JLL, working to integrate sustainability with our real estate products for both our corporate clients and investors as well.

Today I'm joined by Claudina Taylor, the Asia Pacific Enablement Lead for JLL Sustainable Operations and Tosh Szatow, Growth and Innovation Manager at Flow Power.

, it wouldn't be a podcast in: 2025

Okay, so we'll start today's conversation talking about sustainability regulations. We are now shifting towards a landscape where the largest companies in Australia are going to be going a lot deeper with the reporting, the data that they need to capture, the way that they need to report, and therefore how they implement energy procurement strategies, how they work across their business to integrate sustainability and real estate with finance and other parts of their corporate structures.

So we start with ASRS. In: 2025

So we're going to have a lot more companies gathering data, reporting data, getting back to back, and getting alignment between their data so we know where the gaps are and where the overlaps are. The second force that's driving some change in the local market is the evolution of the neighbours scheme that's going to be deployed to more buildings, more types of buildings, and smaller buildings as well.

So we're going to see a confluence of corporates and governments collecting more data to report as part of their annual report, sit back to back with their financial statement. But we're also going to see landlords and tenants gathering more data about more types of buildings, whether they're hotels, whether they're hospitals and health facilities, whether they're education or student accommodation, and lots of other different types of assets as well. We'll start to see these rating schemes deployed to them.

So if you're gathering all this data, if you're starting to do all this work for compliance, how can you start to drive more value for your business? How can you maximise the investment in this compliance requirement to ensure that you can create an edge for your business in a really complex and competitive market? And that's where we'll see our conversation drive today.

Okay. So let me bring in our special guests today and start the conversation. Claudina, I'm keen to hear from you, how are some of our corporate clients addressing these changes in reporting regulation?

Claudina: It's really interesting because we have our clients who, a lot of our clients have been collecting data for a long time, so they've already got that foundation of data capture in place, but now we are seeing a lot more around automation and the need for all that data to come through different channels automatically and feed through into data management portals so that it's available and there's less human touchpoints, I guess, ultimately.

So, you know, we've got clients who, even though they have been capturing data, it's been putting more rigour around how that data is being captured. They're doing audits for the first time. And so there's sort of, I guess, data points and I guess resources who have never had to capture this volume of data before. And they're all kind of doing it for the first time. We're requesting data from landlords on behalf of our tenants for the first time. And it's a question where we're getting actually zero responses sometimes from our landlords.

On the flip side of that, we've got our, some of our corporate clients from financial institutions who have got completely well established, you know, automated systems from when the bills first come in straight through the payment system and then straight into their data management portals. So really it's a, I think it's a movement of that automation so that they're not, they're less focused on the data and they're more focused on the financial implications on the business. And then I guess the further understanding around energy efficiency and energy procurement.

Simon: So we're seeing some differences in the maturity across our clients. Have you seen any trends sectors or at different levels of government?

Claudina: Ooh yeah. Within sectors, definitely financial institutions are leading and that makes sense. Of course, they're so risk-averse, they have to be very careful with how they manage all of the data within their system. There are controls and checks in place across from end to end, from when data is received through to how it's reported at the end.

You've also got your corporates looking at things with a bit more of a magnifying glass. You know, they're looking at how those invoices are captured, you know, how we are monitoring the ons and offs of sites across the portfolio. There's a bit more rigour around the process. And so bringing it up to that level and then there's going to be further scrutiny on that data moving forward has been a process.

We're going out to landlords requesting data from landlords on behalf of our tenants where they've never had this sort of request come through before and they're not even responding at times. There will be a real transition and change because we're going to be going out to landlords who've never had this question come to them before. And eventually we're going to be going out to suppliers, asking them questions as well. That's why it's going to be so impactful when this transition comes through. because we're asking questions to suppliers and landlords who have never faced this question before.

Simon: Thanks, Claudina. That sounds a little bit scary, if I'm honest. It is, it's, it sounds like a lot of work is coming. I've got two quick follow up questions for you. The first one is around audits. I think when some people hear the word audits, they might be thinking of energy audits or building audits and opening up cupboards and having a look at switchboards and things like that. I get the sense this might be a little bit different. Could you tell us about the type of things that real estate teams are being asked to do that they might not have been asked to do before? And also who's undertaking these audits? Who's responsible for them?

Claudina: Our experience has been largely around observing the likes of like PwC, EY doing these, these audits for the, on behalf of the corporates.

So it's really digging deeper into the full process. It's not just a, we've, we've got our third party, they're paying the invoice, it's coming through as a data management portal, and here's the data. There are a lot of checks and controls that are in place to ensure that what we're reporting, we can hand on heart, say, yes, this is accurate data that we're reporting back to the client so that you can then undertake your environmental reporting for voluntary or regulatory needs.

Simon: Thanks, Claudina. Again, that sounds really complex, but it's good to hear that there's a process in place that companies can follow to get it right, do it once, do it right.

Claudina: Sure. And only improve as well. I mean, you know, some of these, our clients is doing it for maybe the first, second time, and obviously there's an expectation and with every audit that you will improve as you, as you do more audits. So some of our financial institutions, they've been doing this for a really long time. Their processes are very, very schmick. You know, they've got a lot of automation and it, and it's really streamlined. Whereas where we're supporting our clients for the first time, our data sources don't know where their bills are. You know, it's as simple as, you know, you've got a shed in the middle of nowhere who's paying that bill? Does a bill even exist? Somebody must be paying you, you're not getting it for free. Do you need to make assumptions around what that shed might be consuming, for example?

So it's that sort of end-to-end variety of clients that we're servicing to get to that end point where everybody understands how their portfolios are performing and how much they're emitting.

Simon: So it sounds like regardless of the complexity or maturity of your business, you don't have a choice. You got to get started a

Claudina: Hundred percent.

Simon: So the time is now.

Claudina: Yes.

Simon: Thanks, Claudina. Okay, well Tosh, turning to you. Claudina talked about third party support, third party suppliers, the whole value chain. What are the questions that you are being asked as a business? What are the different ways that customers are engaging with, with your organisation?

Tosh: I think probably the big overarching thing for energy companies always is how do you bring down the cost of energy in this context? How do you bring down the cost of renewable energy? So I, I think it's helpful to, to sort of, yeah, go back a bit and say, look, 10 years ago, addressing your emissions was pretty simple. You can buy your green certificates. You essentially offset your emissions for a year and you can show that you're your carbon neutral if you like, or, or net zero emission. And then I think there was recognition that that approach didn't necessarily support investment in new renewables in a targeted way.

So, around: 2017

And then the question now is like, well, what's, what's next? If you're a big corporate, you can address your scope one scope to emissions, at least from an energy procurement perspective with a power purchase agreement, for example. But then how do you address your scope three? Do you just tell your scope three stakeholders to buy green certificates and their cost of energy goes up, whatever, three, four, five cents a kilowatt-hour? Or do you find a way of sharing the benefits of your, your purchasing power and, and maybe the benefits of your power purchase agreement with your scope three supply chain?

So I think we're getting those kind of questions now and yeah, this overarching theme, like, okay, great, we've done, we've done PPAs, we've done power purchase agreements, what's next? What's the next wave of innovation look like there?

Simon: We've got organisations trying to keep the cost down, as you say, that might be the left hand. But then with the right hand, we've got finance and audit teams responding to data requests from third parties, from their big four external auditor, from directors. It's all about organisations really getting their strategy lined up, getting all of their stakeholders lined up to drive opportunities. The government has told corporates to budget between 700,000 and a million dollars for the implementation of the Australian sustainability regulations standards. Can they drive value into energy procurement at the same time?

Tosh: I certainly hope so. Yeah, certainly hope so. And I think there is a bit of a mind shift going from just trying to be compliant or to minimise cost when it comes to energy and sustainability and shifting more toward how do we see ourselves as an asset in the energy market? And then how do we drive value out of that?

And so I think that the big source of value in the energy market now and over the next five or ten years is it comes from matching your demand to supply or renewable supply and, and price in real time. So basically when the grid is full of renewables, price is very low. When it's not full of renewables, when it's coal and gas prices are very high. So if you simplify that and say, well, I want to match my demand to renewables in real time, then chance s are you can, you can drive a lot of value. But then it's like, yeah, how, how do you do that? What are the levers you can pull? And that's obviously going to be different organisation to organisation

Simon: Sounds like doing a load of washing while the sun's shining.

Tosh: Exactly. Yeah.

Simon: Okay. So process change, business change, strategy change sounds like more need for alignment. Claudina, I'll come back to you for a second. We talked before about different sectors, financials, other corporates. What about levels of government? We've obviously got this regulation coming down from the federal, but here in Victoria, we've got a government that's established an energy commission. They're starting to build new infrastructure. You seeing anything different across the states or at a federal level?

Claudina: So historically, some of our local governments have moved around progressive purchasing, so purchasing their energy in three month blocks so that they're less exposed to the share market and the purchasing of energy in a locked fixed contract. And nationally, we are seeing our governments actually extend beyond locked contracts and, and actually looking to procure their own power purchase agreements across their full portfolio across the country, which I think is definitely a welcome approach because previous to that, it didn't seem like they had a real energy strategy in place, so this should streamline and lead to a lot of energy savings for their full portfolio.

Simon: Thanks, Claudina. So again, we're seeing, we're hearing the shift from buying at a year's block, perhaps down to a three month block, and now over the next five, ten years, that might shift down to five minute or thirty minute blocks.

Claudina: Yeah, absolutely. Again, not something that is sort of standard in place. Obviously depending on how a portfolio is set up, that can come at additional costs when you're, you are utilising a third party. But I think that it comes with benefits, but there's also, there's ways around it as well is something that I've observed that, you know, you can be more creative with how you're validating your invoices so that you can still observe that, that saving, but feel confident that you are receiving that benefit in that procurement strategy.

Tosh: One is price volatility in the energy market, just just going up and up. If we go back, probably fifteen or twenty years, the running joke was like, oh yeah one day solar will be affordable. You know, no one really believed it. But then over the period of about six to twelve months, it went from being, you know, 10,000 a kilowatt to instal solar on your roof to about 2,000. We're starting to see that with batteries. you're going to have a battery there and the battery's your ally in the energy market. and you could use a battery to manage that redundancy risk, but also beat the market and the price volatility at the same time.

Simon: That's a great segue into our next topic that we wanted to cover today, which is around the energy transition. So we're now 25, 30 years into sustainability and built environment regulation. We talked about 20 years ago, solar being too expensive and a pie in the sky transition idea, but now it's the cheapest energy that we can produce here in Australia. What are some of the proactive approaches that people could take to get involved in this transition and really activate their energy strategy?

Tosh: Yeah, I think a huge thing that customers can do, that large energy users can do, or, you know, you're just big and small, is really get into understanding their demand shape, the timing of their demand and how that lined up to, to energy prices. Because this is ultimately where the opportunity is to kind of beat the market, if you like to, to beat the average. And you need to be proactive because it does take time, takes time to get your head around your energy use and timing energy use, and what options you have to change the time of your energy use.

If you just go to market to buy energy and expect that to be a six week process, you are, you are just going to be a, as a price taker if you like, but if you really understand the value of your, your energy use as an asset, then you've got the chance to be more proactive and, and potentially have more, more leverage in that negotiation.

So to give you a sense of that, if you have a energy load profile and energy shape, which is sort of daytime heavy, you know, which is largely around say eight till six or or nine to five, there's a very good chance, regardless of what state of Australia you're in, particularly in spring and and summer, that you are using energy that is either zero cost or negative costs to generate. It's hard maybe for people to wrap their head around, but energy is priced in five minute increments. It can fluctuate from negative to extremely expensive. So $15,000 plus a megawatt hour.

So it's a bit like, you know, one day you could be paid to fill your car with petrol and the next you might be paying $3,000 a litre or more. That's what's happening in the energy market. So the key to, to kind of beating the market for like, getting ahead of the volatility is to understand your, the time of your demand, how you can change the time of your demand or you know, like we talked about, how you can add a battery to help do that for you.

Simon: And a lot of that probably comes down to your data quality in the first place, right? So if we go back to your clients who aren't even, or are really at the beginning of their journey where they were just collecting their consumption data on a monthly bill, where this is sort of talking more around, you know, interval data, receiving it through your smart meter, it means that in some states it's not, they're going through a transition of changing all the meters over. So we've got basic meters in place in a lot of states, and so the data is not feeding through immediately. And so there's a lag and so there's a whole exercise of transitioning all of those onto smart meters to get this granularity around data quality to be able to have this very proactive approach to energy management. So it starts with that data quality and it feeds through to your, you know, energy strategy.

Claudina: So I think that's where JLL really is supporting a lot of our clients at the moment where they don't necessarily have that data captured, not only in capturing that data from the very beginning, but working through to metering data, getting that automation come through so there's less manual manipulation around that data so that we're in a position to then go and, and navigate an energy strategy in the first place.

Tosh: Yeah, that's such a great point. If you don't have that interval data, that fine-grain data, you've, you've got almost no chance of really understanding how to take advantage of this.

Claudina: Exactly.

Tosh: I think the, the follow on to that is being able to visualise that data in a meaningful way is really powerful. So because all of our customers are exposed to wholesale price in some way, they can all benefit or their bills can go up if their, if their shape is a bad match for prices. But we find a lot of those conversations with customers start with like, oh, energy flexibility, it's kind of too hard. We don't think we can do anything. But then you show them their data, you show them, okay, this is what your load profile looks like by the way, you know, at this time of day there's a 70% chance prices are negative and, and all of a sudden they're, you know, they're talking about, oh, maybe maybe we could, you know, delay turning on that equipment for an hour or two, or maybe we could switch off or, you know, dial back air conditioning at 4:30 PM instead of, you know, 6:00 PM because people leaving at five anyway. So yeah, having that data and then being able to visualise it is, is really where it starts.

Simon: So we really are seeing a shift from thinking about energy as a commodity to an asset, just as important as the people that work in the building themselves. So we have a pay to play scenario, but it's also better to collaborate if you need to compete.

Tosh: Yeah, there's a term for this Tosh where you are getting multiple parties together to procure energy as you, you have more buying power when you have more players. What is the term?

Simon: yeah, group buying

Claudina: Group buying. That's it. Again, we're seeing, we're seeing group buying with power purchase agreement, seeing like groups of councils in particular get together. If we do unlock that collective value, will we have a challenge in the market that we don't have enough renewable energy or we don't have enough energy to go around?

Tosh: I, I think, yeah, there's this constant chat at the moment. I think particularly because of the growth in, in data use and for data centre growth to service sort of AI applications, there has been this emerging conversation of like, well, yeah, how do we build enough renewables, do we need new technologies to supply renewable energy to those kind of loads on a 24/7 basis?

Simon: We're getting into some complexity here. The distributors, the generators, the regulators the governments, the authorities. How's that changing the way that they operate and the types of services they're seeking from us?

Claudina: So it's not something that we have previously needed to, to provide as a service, but there are circumstances where some level of tariff validation is required to support unique purchasing arrangements that some of our clients have in place. In that instance, it's quite an integrated approach where the bills are going directly to that third party. It's being validated, it's being managed through that process It does depend on what framework each client has set up and then JLL is basically pivoting to support that client in the service delivery that we need to do in order to support them.

Simon: So we've got some of our clients thinking about energy assets at a grid scale, generation scale. We've got other clients that are starting to think about perhaps putting a battery behind the metre, smaller asset - plant and equipment in the building. They might own it, they might lease it. We've got a real variety of the way that our clients and and organisations in the Australian market are starting to respond to these regulatory changes and opportunities in the energy market as well.

But let's bring it back to the built environment, let's bring it back to smart buildings as well. So there's opportunities, if you're doing something at a grid scale your supply, you really need to match that back to demand, it sounds. So we've got buying a solar farm, but we also need to make sure that we need all of that solar and we're using it when we need it and when we're generating it. What else can we do in buildings? We said that we'd talk about agentic AI, I know that we're doing some things around optical recognition and reading those bills that we're validating as well. But let's keep it in the built environment first before we come back to data Tosh.

Tosh: Yeah, it does feel like there's a, there's a big opportunity in smart building management, specifically heating and cooling loads and being able to dial those up and down depending on what's happening in, in the energy market or in the case of, you know, a corporate that owns their own solar farm. Shifting some of that heating or cooling load to better match the supply coming from that solar asset to reduce the need for firming and, and the costs associated with that.

We haven't yet seen a lot of examples of that. We know there are companies out there kind of playing that space trying to pay in that space. It seems like at least, you know, from, potentially from an outsider's perspective, it seems like there's some tinkering in that space, but not to wholesale buy into taking that approach. But yeah, it certainly seems like a big source of potential value. Curious to hear if you guys have building owners or operators sort of talking about that or dipping their toe in that water.

Claudina: We have a team within JLL that actually supports, has put sensors into some of our, you know, plant rooms looking at smart building solutions and automating temperature control changes and basically putting a whole lot of rules and triggers and alerts in place that will identify opportunities for improvement and efficiency and optimisation within a a building, mainly when it's sort of we're managing the whole building. It's a great concept, but I think what we are finding is practically it's quite challenging to implement even when we are JLL and we have all of the levers at our fingertips because we manage the vendor, we manage the building and we have a partnership, an internal partnership with the, you know, with that concept of smart building management because it's challenged by who can actually pull the lever to make the change, right?

So the challenge is that when it comes to smart buildings is just having the ability to connect the right levers to the right alerts so that those changes can be implemented quickly so that those changes can actually be impactful to your demand and usage.

So it's interesting to see all of our clients at all of their different, I guess, points of their transition and seeing how we can support them through each of those processes. Because we manage so many clients, corporate portfolios, we can see anything from manual data capture from an FM to a dedicated team who's capturing all the data across the portfolio to automation of that data coming through. And then how does that then feed into our operational space and supporting our FM operations FM team in optimising building performance.

Simon: Yeah. Well I think we're seeing the same thing. One of the issues that's come up, seems to be a regular theme is this idea of building comfort and comfort regulations. So obviously if it's 40 degrees outside a building at 25, 26, 27 probably still feels quite cool. But the way comfort bands are set, either in regulation or in contracts with tenants, there's often a tight temperature range the buildings have to stay within. And so As soon as you start talking about turning air conditioning off or cycling on and off for short periods, there's this nervous, this nervousness, real or perceived. There's this nervousness around, oh, what happens if we miss our comfort bands? It feels like there's something human there to address. Is it's less of a technology issue. It's less like the business case is probably there. But it's like, can we just, can we have a conversation about Like what comfort

Claudina: And sometimes there's actually limitations in the lease itself. There's actually restrictions in the lease that you're not allowed to change the temperature within a space, within the certain tolerance. So yeah, a hundred percent that's true as well.

Tosh: It's a funny one. because you know, we all work in offices, you talk to people that work in offices. So yeah, I feel like certainly the conversations we've had, it's, in some ways it's almost comically simple. You've got this massive opportunity around smart energy management and grid-interactive buildings, but the solution is like, can we just, can we just change your temperature a couple of degrees or not even, you know, can we take a, a small risk, the temperature band might flood outside the range for, for 30 or 30 minutes or 60 minutes.

Claudina: Yeah. And you don't know how the tenants are going to react. Right? You know, you don't want to flood of complaints because all of a sudden, you know, it's just gotten really cold and everybody's logging calls within the system and say there's been a significant change in the temperature you would think that they wouldn't notice. But some people are hypersensitive, they might bring their own heater in and then you've got another challenge because they've got their own portable heater sitting under their desk.

Simon: So we're getting into that spaghetti bowl of complexity with sustainability and innovation. Claudina, you said we're not quite there yet and I can hear some of the reasons why, you know, when we bring people into the situation and everything can become quite subjective quite quickly. We talked before about the impact of return to office and utilisation and forecasting energy demand and experience, the employee experience or the user experience is probably just as important when you're setting a strategy and that tension between save costs and, and bring people into the workplace and, and create that value out of your investment in, in your real estate as well.

Claudina, you said we're not quite there yet. So for clients that want to make progress in this space, particularly here in Australia, they might be more mature in this area. They might have more complex processes in place, they're more likely to be in highly efficient buildings. So can they drive value out of a smart building innovation?

Claudina: I definitely think they can still, because I think these this is where I was saying before, they're progressive, your institutional landlords, they've, they've set their targets, they're a little bit more proactive with the management and the performance of their buildings because of the drivers like neighbours and things like that. From a client perspective though, I definitely think that there's scope because I think that my observation has been that there seems to be more focus around, well that's not true. There's a bit of both. There's the focus around data capture and then there's the focus around energy efficiency, but there's cost associated with energy efficiency.

So JLL is supporting or you know, that energy efficiency pathway is something that is gradual, we're looking at portfolio opportunities, baselining portfolios to look at where those opportunities lie so that we can help forward plan capital programs and asset replacement, looking at low cost, no cost opportunities first in the first instance and then supporting our clients to understand where the opportunities lie to invest in the future. Using tools that JLL also offer, such as carbon pathfinder for example, where you can actually, you know, map out your full portfolio, understand your consumption across that portfolio and actually model where those energy, if you were to implement certain energy efficiency opportunities like HVAC upgrades, lighting opportunities across multiple assets, what that energy reduction will be so that you can future plan and you can actually present that to their senior leaders and their, I guess, you know, budget approvers, budget approvers is that people with the money, the, that care about that sort of stuff. Yeah. So yeah, it just allows that more strategic approach and view to say, Hey, we've got a portfolio that's consuming this much, we can reduce it by this much. This is what it's got to ultimately cost. What's more important to you.

Simon: That's great. So getting the data in place, getting the stakeholders lined up and then taking action to really drive the value back into the operations and real estate as well.

Claudina: Yep.

Simon: Sounds like fun. Okay, so we've talked about companies big and small, we've talked about different things that you can do investing into the portfolio with capital works, low cost and no cost works, so much options, so many pathways, Tosh - where should companies start?

Tosh: I think a really interesting one to touch on is, you can add energy demand and reduce cost. Now a good example of this is a customer we have that added, they've got about 10 electric car chargers for their staff. So they, they come in anywhere from 8AM, but a lot of the charging is from sort of 8:30/9AM through to 3 or 4PM in the afternoon. The charging load that we bill basically costs about minus four, minus five cents a kilowatt hour because most of that charging is occurring during the daytime hours when prices are, are negative.

Actually did interesting modelling exercise with them to show that actually a hundred percent of the car charging needs for their staff can be done during negative priced hours. That's a Victorian site. So it's this sort of, very new idea that you can actually add energy demand and reduce costs. You can get paid for increasing energy demand because you're doing it a certain type of day.

But then of course from a building owner's perspective or a tenant's perspective, you're creating value, you're creating value for staff, potentially visitors that are coming to that site unable to, to charge electric car. They're essentially getting paid to use energy during the day and then they can go home and in a future state when we have vehicle to grid or vehicle to home kind of capability, they'll be able to go home and supply those expensive evening peaks from their car instead of drawing energy from the grid.

There's a really positive mutually reinforcing kind of value exchange that's possible when we think a bit more creatively about energy use and how we, how we share the value.

Simon: So the energy transition's also coming for the corporate fuel card it sounds like as well.

Tosh: Absolutely. I think any, anyone doing more than about 30,000 kilometres a year in a vehicle will get very strong returns from going electric. Potentially even less kilometres per year. But yeah, it's a real source of value. Again, this idea that, you know, as an energy consumer, you've got value in the energy market. So the electric vehicle charging is a great one because we can concentrate the timing of it to extract that value and, and share that in, in novel ways.

Simon: Thanks Tosh. I think that's a great place to start wrapping things up. Today's conversation as we said at the top would be really wide ranging. We've covered off sustainability regulation, the changes in Australia over the last 25, 30 years. We've heard about what's happening with energy transition as well, a shift from traditional fossil fuels and, and buying energy in large long-term bulks to taking a more strategic or progressive approach and also into smart buildings and some of the changes that are happening within the built environment, both for landlords, investors of real estate, but also occupiers of real estate where they're making that investment into regulation and they're making that investment into energy procurement. They're also able to drive value into their core operations by doing so.

So might just ask for some quick final comments, Claudina from you,

Claudina: I thought about what my key takeaways were going to be from having this conversation today and I was thinking about how ultimately energy strategy is something that is a real, a bit more of an innovation around supporting our clients. It's not something that we've been involved in, but we're definitely seeing more and more and there is a lot of value in saving money through having a really clear energy strategy. But I think that what my key other takeaway would be that the data is actually critical to support that. So you may have the intention to try and understand where your peak demands are and where the savings is around energy consumption, but the data is the crux of that success, because if you obviously don't have that foundation, you can't inform the energy strategy

Simon: Data in data out.

Claudina: Yep.

Simon: Thanks Claudina and Tosh, what about for you?

Tosh: Yeah, I think for me, there's a trade off or a choice we make between a create value mindset and a control cost mindset when it comes to energy. And I think just given where we are in the energy market transition, it's definitely time for the create value mindset to take charge if I can put it that way. It's a time to be more creative, to explore what's possible and to really yeah. Create new solutions that add value to, to your organisation and the ecosystem. There'll be a time for to control cost minimisation, strategies to reemerge, but really because we're in this time of change, yeah, there's, there's a lot more to gain from being open and creative in that during this phase than not.

Simon: That's great. And it sounds like it doesn't have to cost the world to be creative. You can actually save money while doing so at the same time.

Well, that wraps us up for today. I'd like to thank Claudina and Tosh for being our special guests. There's a clear opportunity for value creation at this point, but a prevailing need for stakeholder alignment. You'll find more customer stories and research on our brand new website, and you can contact us directly if you're ready to take that next step in your journey. Thanks again.