JLL Perspectives podcast: Learning from digital UX principles

Hi everyone. If you're listening, this is the JLL Flex for Thought series. It's a sub series of the JLL perspectives podcast. I'm your host Tashi Dorjee, the head of flex JLL for Australasia and really excited to bring you this series because we're going to be talking to a number of experts across a variety of disciplines, not just office.

And we're going to unpack what the future of Work and Flex looks like. So let's get started. I really wanted to see how we can, you know, open your brain up and leverage all the experience you have around UX, UI, user interface, user interaction, and customer journeys when you apply it to digital products. To see if we can borrow from that and apply it to, office design or workplace design or workplace strategy, which actually leans still a lot on technology like different touchpoints, apps and everything like that.

And I don't expect you to have all the answers. I think this could be a really cool podcast where we just kind of live, workshop it, or just talk about it. But yeah, if you apply a UX, UI, design process, what are some of the key things that you do first, first or foremost that we can maybe take inspiration from?

So the first thing is, you know, what is a problem? Problem is always a problem sometimes. Is there an opportunity. So we in the startup space everyone gets hung up on what problem we solve here, which is true in a lot of ways. Sometimes it's a lot more opportunities there to it might not necessarily be a problem. I mean, you look at last few years post-Covid, the it was a problem, right?

Because we all had to adjust to working from home. And then we started to come back to work. And then the problem shifted to sort of a problem. How do we get people back into spaces? Yeah. And how do we get people coming back into the real world? But then there's this big space in between the problem of filling space and what's the opportunity to bring people back in a different, in a more natural sort of way.

So from a digital point of view, you know, the problem that we're solving or the opportunity is, is that, well, how do we know it's a problem? How do we know it's an opportunity? Who's experiencing this problem? Who is experiencing or who's who could benefit from an opportunity that we might have identified? And then, basically working through a whole series of assumptions.

What is a potential solution? Like? I'm working with a company at the moment, taking their team through these particular processes, because I've never done a UX slash UI process, and it's a pretty involved organization. So taking them through those processes is that you already have a tonne of knowledge. Right? So let's not dismiss that. Again. A lot of people will dismiss that and just start from the beginning and then identify what opportunities are because in these cases both problem and opportunity. Yeah. And then today we're actually working through what are the assumptions that we have. So what's the format. You know is it a digital thing. Is it a physical thing. Is it a more printed materials which you know, you know, whatever it might be. Yeah. And then we start working with the people who are experiencing this thing.

Right. And that that's, that's the that's the right approach to a design process is that, often things will come from top down. Right? And I have to that's business requirement. And budget usually comes from that from the top down. Right. And then in order for that to work and to be the most valuable thing that can be done, then we've got to go back out into the real world and actually talk to people.

Yeah. So it's really interesting because even following that, that process, it comes down to who's experiencing it at the, at the very, you know, end of that process. But at the beginning of that product and even during this podcast series, speaking to, you know, a plethora of other guests from other disciplines, it does really come back to that end user.

And in this scenario, I guess, you know, to try and simplify it, the end user, when it comes to a commercial real estate or an office design obstacle or opportunity, is the individual essentially walking into that office, right? Walking into that building, and then going to their tenancy within the building or, or sitting and resting within the ground floor.

Concierge. So according to a UX, UI journey we need to test or we need to start with them. Is that right? Yeah. And then I guess a big a big thing that's always recurring. Aside from getting the design right of what the offices is, how do we activate this space to, I guess, tickle the fancies of that individual or that community?

So what would be the right approach to even test that, so that there's two ways. One is taught to people. Often it's it's talking to people is good because you will get something from them. The more powerful thing is to be in the space and observe for a while. Right? So there was an architect in the 60s.

I don't remember his name in North America who would finish the building, but would never do the landscaping right until two years later. What was it you at met? It might have been a year later, but what he would do is go back every week to see where people were naturally walking, right? So the paths that they did, they're made, without any landscaping, became the paths that they would then finish.

Yeah. So it became a fully usable space based on people's natural patterns and natural behaviors. Yeah. So it was a really powerful way to design, just watching what people do and where they stumble. Like know as an example, walking into this building this morning straight away, I knew what to do without having any signage. Walked up the steps.

It was a reception desk. The receptionist was very lovely. Luckily, I saw where you were because you were speaking with somebody, but I knew just from the flow of that space that there was nothing overly tricky about it. Good morning to receptionist. I'm here to see Tashi. If you weren't available, I would have known. Where is it so already?

But that just the nature of the physical space and how that flows is similar to navigation on a website. So you kind of know where. So if if that's the scenario and we almost want to. Maybe this is front running the problem or the obstacle here. Here, knowing that the flow in the customer journey is so important, do you deliberately, borrow from retail or museums and put certain functional experiences throughout that journey?

So part of their experience, even on a welcome their first time in, they're like, oh, there's an area I can do a private phone call, or there's an area where there's a cafe where I can get a coffee or there's so you, reveal options, I suppose. Is that is that where this kind of process kind of leads you towards?

Yeah. You know, basically observing. I mean, that's one of the key things that you do with whether it's digital, physical is to see what other people are doing, what's working, what could be improved. You know, so part of the magic is looking at what is working, but then finding spaces that might not be obvious. Not when I say spaces, not physical spaces, but like white space where there could be an opportunity.

It's like, oh, that person is doing something over here in that industry or that field, and this person doing something over here. Yeah. Is there an opportunity to bring both right. Creating things. So trying to blend it. Blend it. Yeah. To a degree sometimes. Okay. Yeah. Because because I was talking to, a hotel owner a couple of months ago, and he was kind of telling me this incredible trend, which sounds counterintuitive, where you go into some of the five star and the best hotels and, you know, decades ago, they deliberately have this grand foyer.

So you're like, oh, yeah, but now there's no purpose to that grand, grand foyer tour aside from the the wow factor, which is important. Sure. But now they're compartmentalizing that space so that there's purpose. Because if you go into that grand foyer because now work and lifestyle and digital nomads just completely change the game, how it's structured. Where do you go to make your phone call without bothering everyone else in that for you?

Where do you go to meet someone or wait for someone? So they're almost like taking this grand open space and deliberately, almost from a UX UI perspective, putting all these different usable or functional areas within it that that people know what they're going to expect from it. Absolutely. I would just walk past that hotel, kind of say the name.

Yeah, it's also the Hilton on. Yeah. On George Street and walk past and noticed for the first time, really paying attention to it is that their foyer has a cafe where people actually going in and having meetings. Yeah. So whether the guests or not adapt the guests. Yeah, but it becomes that space where they can get out of the office, can have a private meeting, or maybe they don't have an office at all, but it's just the space where they can buy a coffee for five bucks.

They've got a meeting space for half an hour. You know what I mean? Yeah. So. So it becomes this really interesting energy that the space then creates. And they've done a great job there because hotels, generally have always had to fight the stigma that do not come into even the ground floor foyer unless you're a hotel guests, because there's a lot of restaurants and bars out there within a hotel that, you know, empty on a Thursday or Friday night.

But across the road, the pub is packed like the head counts off the charts. And surely there's a branding story, an experience story attached to that. Yeah, but a lot of people don't even go into that hotel because they're like, oh, you know, it's probably only for guests or whatever. So they always find that stigma. So they're even on going on their own, experimentation and journey to figure out how do we invite people in?

Because they could be 100% occupied, rooms fully booked, but the communal areas are empty. That ghost town. Absolutely. I'm in the restaurant world. Years ago, I was living in the inner city and there were two pizza restaurants right next to each other. Fairly similar menus. And I took a photo of this. I was writing a service design course, and it was like, oh my God, this is perfect opening.

So I took a photo of it. The restaurant on the right had a queue. The restaurant on the left had nobody in it. Yeah, and it was a Friday night. Yeah. So there's no reason for a restaurant to be empty on a Friday night? But I knew both of them and one of them serviced backpackers. Takeaway. That was it.

That's what they were known for. Never one was a full experience. From the moment you walked in, you had the owner. She graded you right. Very beautiful. Welcoming. Everything was kind of mismatching, but it felt like you were in the back street. The run, you know what I mean? So it had its own energy and some vibration.

So that's what's happening with the bigger spaces that I'm seeing right now, is that those who can understand that you're creating an end to end experience is not, you know, I'm coming short. I want to come in to work. Yeah. What's the additional thing that I'm expecting that I can't get from sitting on my computer and having a video meeting?

Yeah, it's funny you say that because I literally, And it depends on whoever's listening, what order. They listen to this at this podcast series. But I was speaking to Oscar, one of the co-founders, Young Henrys, and he was even talking about beyond the way that he does experience, he can order stuff from a sub online, but he always chooses to go into the store because they've done a really good job within that physical brick and mortar presence to greet you, make sure you have a good experience.

So it's kind of like to your point, what are you doing? Yeah. And from an office angle, the reason why they're trying to borrow from the hotel world is because the hotel world has figured out, or are still trying to figure out how to provide that concierge or that welcome experience that's they're. Granted, it's a lot easier for them versus commercial real estate because the head count you're dealing with, because it's a completely different business model, eclipses that of commercial real estate.

So you got more people and more touch points, I guess, to do that. But there's a lot of that that is required in a office context. But I think it's really like this is why I think, you know, even applying a UX, UI perspective is really important because there's the big buildings that can afford to do crazy stuff because they've got a big building concierge, they've got stuff they've got, but it's the smaller assets or the big great assets that maybe don't have a concierge because they're not big enough to afford one from a operating cost perspective or whatever.

So I was living in London in: 2000

Yeah,: 2007

What had happened in that period was this whole rise of gastro food. The Gastropubs in London meant that these young kids had an opportunity to showcase their talents and be highly experimental, right. They weren't paying rent, but the deal was that as long as you bought our liquor and served our liquor, it started to create this real buzz in London.

And every borough had some of the most incredible food served by young people. Right. And when I think about what's going on with some of these spaces, who there's so many people who want to open up a cafe who is slightly experimental. They want to push boundaries, but the set up to go into a physical cafe, it's prohibitive.

You know, it's 250 grand minimum to set up a fairly decent cafe. If these spaces just open up a little chaos, that sort of thing, it's phenomenal. What do you. Kingswood? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was in North Sydney yesterday going into a workshop and I've got a tiny little hole in the wall that would be in my mind would be an opportunity to say here, here are some requirements.

If somebody is looking where to go into the building, put it into the signage board. But basically they become a mate in Greek writing as well. Yeah okay. But it's an opportunity to give people a space. Yeah a kiosk. Yeah. That's just one idea. No, it's a good one because it also I feel like as long as the expectation is managed upfront to the tenant or whatever, that it's an experiment or whatever.

Tully. I feel like creativity is really born from risk taking and courage. So if you invite that kind of excitement there. Yeah, you never know, then it could kind of, you know, breathe its own, sustainability into, like, staying there right once it's there. But it comes down to the experience you want to provide because. Yes. And I think that's a really good point you make, because when you think about activation within an office environment, you know, there's the generic basic stuff you can always do that generally takes the boxes or networking events will host drinks or we'll do yoga, we'll do wellness stuff.

Sure. Like almost everyone puts that within their activation calendar. But what are you doing that could differentiate your space or be exciting to an end? And that comes from taking risks like, you know, it's not just doing the same stuff that's happening down the road. Yeah, right. If you see some of the stuff is going on in, in America, I think mostly North America around New York.

Tell me about some of the bigger brands, retail brands, right this on to open up the retail fashion brands are starting to create this concept of the fourth space. I'm going to tell me about this. So it's where they've got the space. People aren't that there's not a lot of foot traffic going into these high end retailers, but what they're doing is creating little cafes and little places where people can meet and greet.

Yeah, right. So they're actually extending their brand new, stretching it out to sell a little bit more. But what it's doing is bringing people into a space that there might be people who typically working from home, could be freelancers, whatever it might be, but they're opening up their spaces to create different experiences rather than just coming in and buying.

Yes. Yeah, but what it's doing is that it's creating this whole wave of of energy in traditionally what's a typically closed sort of space, unless you want to buy that thing. Right. You might be it's opening up this whole thing, which is a really brilliant branding exercise. Yeah. For for the retail perspective, but also creates this incredible experiential thing where communities are starting to form.

Yeah, okay. In a space that wasn't typical before. And it'll, it also like as an extension from their existing brand, it'll attract a certain I'd like to think like minded community to that particular venue. I've sort of because it's almost like the that brand will bleed into even the cafe area unintentionally. It's like, you know, in my mind it's like if there's two stores, there's a fashion, a women's fashion, one with a cafe and there's like, you know, a video game, one on the left hand side, an electric garden.

Gadgets. One cafe. I'm going to go sit on the gadgets one, you know what I mean? And I'll probably me. So that's really interesting. It's kind of like a little nod to the two space concept. But then you see, the long time ago that was again, brilliant. Probably ahead of his time, right? Yeah, yeah. So, so that's so for everyone listening.

That's the, the the failed startup of mine. It took six years of my life. I went to 30 restaurants. It's a co-working space challenge. This whole idea. Yeah. Me too, man. Like, it's just it's such a beautiful opportunity to look at it as what you did was. He took a pun. Yeah, and it worked for a while.

Worked for a while. Got me my job at JLL because of the experience. Yeah. My wife, he's I have a kid you're selling on. It's a it's Oh, no, this is really a tangent. So, so coming back to the, the UX, UI process, let's say we've now tested, we've spoken. So I love the idea of just sitting and observing.

and build the next asset for: 2020

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the next step would be prototyping concept. So we're you naturally go from observation. So firstly business understanding okay. We've got this is what we need to do. Whether it's a problem or an opportunity is budget time. If that's a if that's part of the constraint. He's our observations and our conversations that we've had.

And the next city is just okay. So by that point you start to form a fairly good idea around what a concept could be. Yep. So prototype that's the next thing is like pick a place. And what's the cheapest quickest thing that you could do to test whether or not the idea is and this happens pretty quickly, it's like a sprint, right?

We're not talking like weeks, months. It's like no STD test to test it. And that's the thing that's I think that's a good thing that with this whole digital space is gone. Yeah. Experience you take things used to take months and months and months of research. I, I don't believe that anything should take three months of research. Sure.

You know, you get things have changed by then. Of course. And this concept of doing just enough just in time with just with what you've got right now is the most powerful thing. Because we're never going to get to 100% of anything. So everything just in time gets us to about 80, 85% of what's right. Right. So you know what?

What's the cheapest thing from a concept prototype point of view, cheapest, quickest thing that you can use to test and do more observation. That's. And then you know what I mean. Test or conversation. This makes so much sense because like I haven't seen a lobby in an office AB test a lobby design ever. Maybe I'm wrong, but like, how cool would it be if as an experiment for any landlords listening and you even communicate this to the tenant community and the, the neighborhood, the precinct we're going to test we're going to test our lobby.

So expect a bunch of makeshift like pop ups, designs, meeting rooms, cafe. We're going to speak to a creative, young professional who wants to test some stuff. We're going to do all these things and we'll get a test it, and we're going to observe. And that's going to inform our lobby design. Whereas I feel like a lot of the lobby designs and I'm talking about lobbies specifically like, you know, within, within, commercial assets, it all happens behind closed doors.

And you get some, you know, hotshot designer that comes in who every right, you know, as a hot shot designer. Yeah, but may not have the operational experience or the, you know, the cafe experience or the activation experience, but they're just kind of designing what they know and what looks cool. Yeah. And then everything kind of happens is an afterthought, because there's so many times I get brought in and they're like, this is the lobby.

This is the fit out. This is what can you do with it now? And it's like, well, this is what I do, but it's going to cost you now because it's an afterthought. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It'd be, it'd be I reckon it'd be fun. Right. Lambie to ab test a lovely. Totally. You know, when you think again like applying principles from other industries.

So when somebody's selling their home, there's people who've got a ton of furniture and stuff that come in and style your house. Yeah, right. So so imagine having that for a physical, commercial environment, having a pool of things that you could just draw from. Yeah. And play. Yeah. There's, there's, there's furniture brands out there that try and do that.

But they've never approached it in a way where it's like, let's test how people would interact with the space with purposefulness, right? It's always just like, oh, do you like this? Do you like this? Do you want to sit or stand desk? But I think if anything comes out of this podcast, it'd be super cool if, if an owner's like, we're going to ab test our lobby and communicate it, and I'm sure you get some really cool attention and stuff from that as well.

Yeah. And find someone who's willing to do that into a nod to the circular economy rather than buying and trashing stuff you borrow and you reuse stuff as well. Yeah. That's cool. Okay. So so we're going to move away from the lobby now and go into a space. Yeah. Whether it's within someone's own office tenancy or within a third space, co-working space kit, the stuff that you do when it's like, you know, if you want to inspire creativity, you want to build things, whether it's a digital product or it's a new start up.

What kind of spaces do you think are the best for that type of quick testing creativity? And should every office have that, even if they're not trying to create a new product every other day to help, I guess, enable people to have more creative interactions on a day to day basis, even if it's problem solving, you know?

Yeah. Again, it comes down to understanding what where people's side of mind is at that particular time. Right? So everything from deep work where I need to literally just have to concentrate for two hours. I don't need Wi-Fi, I don't need my phone, I don't need anything other than my laptop. Yeah, just deep work. So that whatever that would might be.

Yeah. Then the next bit would be okay, I might need to have a meeting. So still kind of work, but a little bit more relaxed, a bit more comfortable. Right. Not necessarily. Comfortable is not the right word, but the more just a bit more relaxed then the next stage is, okay, I need to have a meeting with somebody like what we're doing right now.

Okay. To foster whatever. Yeah, we need to foster. Then the next big thing is how I use the physical space for the ideation. Yeah, playing like concept drawing, just getting all my ideas up. So everything from tiny little close spaces for deep work up to places where I can. You and I can grab whiteboard markers and just roll over walls.

And it's not a thing that you use every single day, but it's just, again, treat it as an event space. Yeah, that's how I would. Yeah. Go to look at office spaces is as an event space because, you know, a place a place in Surry Hills, which I'm trying to get rid of because clients used to come into because they had no space.

Right now they go into their office once or twice a week. Yeah. So it's not a problem anymore. But it would have been an opportunity to do it differently. Probably grab spaces like these. But it as and when I need it basis. Sure. Everything from deep work because I don't mind working from them. I quite like it.

Yeah, because it gets a bit laundry sometimes. It's like hooky. But every now and again, I just want to get out of the house. Yeah, you have to lie, you know, so I do, I do deep work. Yeah. Other than go and sitting in a cafe, which is not conducive to deep work. Yeah. And then every now and again, I do need an entire wall of whiteboard.

Yeah. To draw. Yeah. So, you know, if everything is, if you consider everything as an event rather than, like office rooms, what's the event? So treat everything as an event, right. It's. Yeah, I love that because in a perfect world, it would be really cool to just work within a multi-purpose event space that has everything that you need, but gives you the flexibility to, to have, accidental creative thought that you can just vomit out, you know, and do it.

Whereas I feel like, there's a lot of friction to allow that to happen in the, in current work environments, like I've always thought for me, because, I know a lot of people are sick of the content I put out by the by this time. I would love like the whether it's a home office or office in the city for a there just to be like, podcast video podcast studio like this just sitting there so that.

Yeah. Or whether it's me just speaking direct or having a guest so I can just be like, rather than makeshift, like, this is all makeshift, like, yeah, we've had to rent the lights. We've had to get the three different cameras. We've had to, like, book this out, move a bunch of furniture that I have to move back because I like the wall.

But it's about taking that friction away, right? I think that's what I'm trying to say. Like, whatever it is for me, it's a media room. For other people. It might be like, you know, whiteboarding or whatever. Yeah. If you take away the friction, I think the ideas and the creativity flows. And right now there's just too much, too much, too many points of friction.

So imagine the media room, right? So it's already set up. You've got you like you've got your camera tripod. Yeah. And you're either going to be you have to bring your own equipment. Yeah. And so you're either going to have a proper SLR, dSLR. Yeah. Or a smartphone. So all you have to do is have the thing set up and say, okay, if you're using your smartphone, do that.

Yeah. If you're using your dSLR, you do that. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. So thank you for that point and shoot. Yeah. You know and then it becomes such a because it's an event right. I don't need a podcast room every minute of the day. Yeah. But I might need it once a week or once a month. Yeah.

Similar to deep work I might not need it all the time, but I might. I've got a massive project I've just got to nail and I've got two weeks. Same with whiteboard. Yeah. Energy from an hour to a month. Who knows? You know, whatever that is. So yeah. And you're right. Remove the friction and just make it so easy to come in and basically plug and play.

Have you have you messed around with any, digital products when it comes to workplace environments like how people interact with even entering a building or end of trips or within a, within an office space. No. Not recently. Yeah. Not recently. It's all pretty much the same. Okay. I've seen so so recently what's the what's the trend or what direction is it going in to.

Almost like, you know, with this hybrid work kind of style with people interacting with digital product offerings or even their phone, you know, are there any, any, behavioral changes that have influenced design? Definitely. I mean, the smartphone has killed a whole lot of interactions that we're having. I mean, if you if you just walk past a bus stop or tram stop, sit on a public transport, the smartphone has done a whole lot.

So, what are the sites recently that have recently come out? The average amount of time a person is spending on a phone? Yeah, he's 7.5 hours a day. Yeah. So that's phenomenal. Right. So going into the office, even if they're going to work the phone is with them. Yeah. So they consuming or interacting. They're doing a whole load of stuff on a tiny device.

That's that's not a surprise to anybody. But what's the surprise is how much time are actually spending on it. Yeah. The context switching. You know, for the most part, most people don't even notice it. I don't care, but there's people who are resisting it as well now. Okay, so but where do we go, to have a place it doesn't have a the technology is great.

Like a neuron over here, but, My prediction, I don't know if it's a trend yet, is that people are going to actually actively look for spaces where they can disconnect. Yeah, okay. From their devices. Full stop. Yeah. Well, we're seeing some, though, where we're designing a few library, no tech zones within some of our spaces, but amazing.

But not giving it the real estate that it deserves. I suppose. So you think it's going to are going to be great. It's going to get greater and greater. Yeah. Because there's already a study with the the boiler room and music. Yeah. Industry study that is showing that 16 to 24 year olds are actually starting to reject anything to do with technology.

So it's a growing trend, you know, and now that we've got AI coming in, hitting us from every other angle, we're just going to get flooded with digital content. So what's going to happen? And it's start starting to show the signs of being true is that people are going to go, okay, too much. I need to become a bit of a human again, which means that they're going to actively look for spaces where they can actually we can actually sit together and look at each other and talk, you know, so that's that's going to be the big that's you I was meant to talk to, you know, Chris Grant from UN Yoked.

Yeah. Yeah. He would be great to talk about this stuff because his whole model with his twin brother cam, who I went to high school with here in the South. Yeah, yeah, we all went to high school together. It focuses around, you know, disconnecting, I think. Yeah. He would be great to talk because. Yeah. He's his business is thriving and doing really well because people want to literally get away.

And for anyone listening, if you don't know about and you have to check it out, but it's like literally where you booked is really, simply designed cabins in beautiful areas that are disconnected from technology. And you've, you've got a view you've got in the forest and stuff like that. Yeah. I should definitely check it out with my wife and it's so good.

But any, any, any level of disconnecting is really good measure. How so? So you reckon that's possible in the office like, I mean yeah you can kind of design and then it's on. It's on. It's going to be kind of like on a volunteer. But yeah, you got to kind of self-select. Yeah. That as a thing that you want to do.

Yeah. But it's an opportunity as well. Because if, if the environment is created where there's going to be no Wi-Fi, then yeah, basically you kind of go, yeah, well, I always feel like, do you deliberately design a dead zone? Yeah. So it's not like you go into the library space with the intention to disconnect that you're still on your phone, just quietly.

So it's almost like, sorry, the library zones that, have been designed a more quiet zones. Yeah. I've yet to see one completely branded as a dead zone. Like, no tech disconnect. It's always like, leave your phone at the front or something like these. Kind of like they're so weird, right? Go into some sort of high CQ.

Yeah. Why are you going through the airport? Yeah. You're on a plane. You can't use your phone. Yeah, yeah. And what do people do? Unfortunately, they end up watching TV and playing their games anyway. But, I tend to write. Yeah, I quite enjoy it. Yeah. Because actually a lot of the stuff I've written, the fiction stuff has come.

And it's so cool sitting on a plane. Yeah. You know, well, it's false. It's a self-selection thing. Yeah. Again, I choose to do it. What's what's the name again? The author of Harry Potter. J.K. Rowling. Yeah. She wrote she wrote it on a train. She was bored. And she she wrote that she wrote Harry Potter while she was on a long ass train.

So, Well, thank you so much for the time. Thank you. Really appreciate it. I think I really want some ab testing to happen in lobbies. I actually think it's it's serendipitous that we uncovered on this pod because it just plays to so many values and stories that are happening around circular furniture. You know, what do people want?

There's an element of courage that's required in the market right now to test activation and ideas. Right now, the only way that that's being facilitated to a degree is designing a multi-purpose event space somewhere, which can be changed, but that's still there's friction to get to that rule and to set it up. Whereas if you are brave enough to do it with a whole lobby and to make that an activation in itself, like an experience in itself.

Yeah, I think it's important because, like even this room, I've made an effort to try and make this an experience for the guests or you come into a cool room. There's all these cameras and lights that are very non jarring way and you're like, oh, okay, we're going to have a discussion. But there's some effort that's gone into the production.

I feel special you know. Yeah I think there needs to be a feeling attached with certain activations within building. Absolutely. And you're right on the mark when you say experiment because that's the thing. I mean, innovation isn't a project. Not solving. Innovation is a whole series of experiments where they work or not. Yeah. I mean, eventually you try to do something because there's so much attention grabbing right now.

Yeah. The people, you know, what they they try team by stimulation. Yeah. Right. And that's everything is based on stimulation. The flip is to stimulate. Yeah I like it. And that's that's where the experiments. Yeah I feel they could be something really big. I think so too. Back in the day. We should pick this up. Yeah. This chat up. So you for sure these are anytime. So yeah it cool. All right. Well thanks for listening everyone. Speak to you again soon. Thank you. Bye. Cool. Awesome. You are a legend. You crushed it. Oh. Thank you.